I’m just against authoritarianism. If you support or worship tyrants past or present, then you’re no friend of mine.
I don’t think it is as black and white as you say though. In general I have faced more bigotry from modern conservatives than I have from leftists. At the same time though the unironic worship of the Soviet Union, or communist icons like Mao and Che leave a bad taste in my mouth. One killed millions of his own people and waged a cultural genocide against traditional Chinese culture and the elderly. Che on the other hand was a homophobic bigot who attempted to eliminate the queer people from Cuba. I understand criticizing Capitalism, and having faith in an economic system that has TBF never been implemented in the way Marx or Ingles would’ve wanted, but to worship the regimes that took the label and did horrible things in its name? I believe in learning from the past rather than trying to recreate it. If communists really want to succeed, they need to stop emulating a failed past, and push towards a new direction.
Not sure if huffpost is a site you would consider trustworthy, but anytime you search for Che and the gay community, its quite consistent with the fact he rounded up the gay and other queer people and had them tortured, raped, and killed.
Look I don’t doubt your commitment to allying with the queer community, but throughout the history of communism, the queer community has also been persecuted by the likes of the Soviet Union, Cuba, hell even China today. Forgive me if my biggest hang up with the communist label are the regimes and people it’s associated with, what they did to people like us.
Do you have anything against these reports though? I can give them a read.
For questions like that pretty much no newspaper is trustworthy.
However you made a claim that is a known propaganda lie, I gave you sources, yet you do not say: “I was wrong, I will delete that sentence from my post and make a disclaimer to it!”, no you try to defend your lie.
You say “while it wasn’t specifically true, you could imagine that over 70 years in some countries of 1.2 billion it might’ve be true somewhere!”
Again, family of mine was prosecuted in the liberal western FRG for homosexuality and sent to prison. 30 years earlier they would’ve ended up in death camps.
I like the concepts of Anarchism. Rather than being run by a leader or following a bureaucracy,I believe people can come together as a community to provide the basic needs to each other. I am also queer, a believer in science, an atheist, and anything else that could possibly get me labeled as a “liberal”. Personally I think things work better in moderation rather than as an all or nothing. I may be an anarchists, but I may share some values with a libertarian or an-cap who believes in capitalism. I’m not about to start a fight over which economic system is better, and will likely rely on them for help and resources. I just hope if we are facing down a tyrant or someone who wishes to do harm to the weak and vulnerable within our communities, we would stand together and help each other out.
I do have what would be considered more leftist tendencies, but I’m not a fundamentalist either. I feel through compromise, and mutual aid is how we as humans have survived since antiquity.
I like the concepts of Anarchism. Rather than being run by a leader or following a bureaucracy
Real communism has no leader or bureaucracy, it is defined as a classless moneyless stateless society. Anarchism and socialism are the steps leading there (by removing capitalism and other hierarchy, making room for equity and equality).
I may share some values with a libertarian or an-cap who believes in capitalism. I’m not about to start a fight over which economic system is better,… I just hope if we are facing down a tyrant or someone who wishes to do harm to the weak and vulnerable within our communities
Capitalism is the biggest tyrant we face and which is actively doing immeasurable harm to the weak and vulnerable within our communities
It literally needs to create entire classes and sub classes of people it labels “weak and vulnerable” to exist
Completely rejecting communism because of failed and often completely misguided attempts to achieve it, while not outright rejecting anyone who supports capitalism which has been achieved and is actively destroying the planet and everything on it , and explaining that with “minimizing harm” is a really terrible take.
The reason I don’t call myself a communist is because I feel it has taken on a different meaning than the one Marx and Engels originally assigned to it. The Soviet Union, The People’s Republic of China, Kampuchia, Cuba, and formerly North Korea have all used the name to describe their governments despite not meeting the criteria by Marx, and they had committed unspeakable evils in its name. I feel utilizing the names, symbols, and legacy of communism without taking the historical weight of them into consideration does a great disservice to the goals of communism. It’s why I even refuse to associate with the hammer and sickle, because to many people, that symbol carries as much weight as a swastika or the rising sun.
It’s actually pretty late for me, but I do want to continue talking later. I’ll even give the reading material a look. I just wanted to air out my grievances with the communist label, and put some context to why I abhor tankies as much as I do fascists.
Are you also against socialism because Hitler called himself a socialist?
Countries like those you named never had actual communism, just like Hitler wasn’t a real socialist. What he and the others did - authoritarianism and dictatorship, are contradictory on the most basic levels to communism and socialism (both are about equity and equality, something that cannot exist if there is a ruling class. Leftist economics cannot exist with anything but leftist values, anything else is inherently incompatible).
Do yourself a favour and unlearn some of the anti-communist propaganda you’ve been socialised with.
There is good reason we call tankies tankies and not communists.
Edit to add: The right has always and continues to co-opt leftist ideas to get in to power, because leftist ideas are actually the popular ones, the problem is when one person or a small group have power, many start off doing it deliberately to get in to power and then abuse it, while others have good intentions but are corrupted by the power they end up with, but either way, once power is centralised in such a way, it is a lot harder to get rid of (it also allows those in power to dictate via the media and the “justice” system who the “in” and “out” groups are to give the people someone to blame that isn’t them).
That’s where anarchism comes in with its ideas of horizontal organisation (I’ll admit I’ve only skimmed this, so I don’t guarantee it’s the best source, but that library is a good place to look these things up anyway) which doesn’t really give any one individual enough power for them to be able to fuck others over with it.
Anyway, I’ve mostly taken the time because I’ve seen you around (not in a creepy way, some avatars just become recognisable after a while) and you seem like you generally “get it” so I’m hoping you’re near enough the edge that I can give you the push you need to join us on the dark side 🏴(black is the anarchism flag) (this isn’t meant to be as sinister, or condescending? sounding as it came out lol sorry!)
The difference between Hitler and the countries I mentioned is that Hitler already has a word associated with his regime: Nazi. When you here it in public, that is the connection you make. Unfortunately that is the same connection people make with communism and people like Stalin or Mao. Regardless of whether the Soviet Union was truly communist or not, it is the country most people associate with the term. Hell, even many leftists make that association, which is why the Soviet flag, communist leaders, and propaganda prints are featured heavily in many communist memes. I agree that the word communism shouldn’t be tied to these regimes forever, but its hard to make a case for reclaiming it when many communist continue to push the association themselves.
Like I said, I mostly agree with the ideal expressed by Engels and Marx, but because of it’s association most people make between communism and the the regimes mentioned above, I think we are doing ourselves a disservice by continuing to gather around symbols and iconography many people in Eastern Europe and Asians associate with imperialism, genocide, and tyranny.
I agree with your second point, which is why I do call myself an anarchist. I believe power is an irresistibly corrupting force, and it doesn’t matter what the intentions are of the people who seize it, if there is too much of it concentrated in the hands of one person, organization, class, or country, it is going to corrupt them. That is why my ideal world would be one with no states, no large governments, no class divisions. where communities can more or less govern themselves according to their needs, and through cooperation and mutual aid, these communities can keep each other afloat, and stand together in times of need. Overly simplified, Let’s say I listen to John Lennon’s Imagine, and wish that could be us.
Yeah, and I’ve seen you around too, and you seem pretty cool, which I why I wanted to carry on this discussion. Forgive me that this thread kinda turned into a communist dunk as that actually wasn’t my intention. I was more to show the types of people I usually see arguing in the threads. And no need for the push, I think anarchists are awesome, and its kinda the journey I took from being a conservative to a leftist. There is still a lot I’m learning and trying to unlearn from my past though.
First of all I’m glad you don’t think I’m a creep lol but also that you’re happy to hear where I’m coming from, I think we’d probably agree on most things…
ow for the messy part lol
The difference between Hitler and the countries I mentioned is that Hitler already has a word associated with his regime: Nazi
Nazi literally stands for “national socialist”, which is why I asked in the first place. There are plenty of people today who still argue that hitler was a leftist because of this connection, and think socialism = genocide. That doesn’t make socialism actually = genocide though, not because there wasn’t genocide, but because there wasn’t socialism. It’s shifting the focus to the wrong part of the problem.
So while I can understand where your view comes from (that bad people ruined a good name so we shouldn’t use the good name anymore) it doesn’t actually stand up in the real world - there will always be people with bad intentions who ruin good things (or simply anything they see as a threat to their power) to attempt to make them “unusable” to those with good intentions, playing in to that only benefits them, not you.
Hell, even “democracy” as we accept it today has nothing to do with actual democracy, but instead it exists to maintain the status quo (by providing the illusion of choice between only 2 parties, both of which work for and uphold capitalism)
That is why my ideal world would be one with no states, no large governments, no class divisions. where communities can more or less govern themselves according to their needs, and through cooperation and mutual aid
literally the definition of communism!
the journey I took from being a conservative to a leftist.
this explains a lot, especially the willingness to still hear out capitalists. I come from a liberal home and upbringing, so while I raised to question the status quo (to an extent anyway) I had (and still do) a lot to unlearn, it’s not quite as much as someone from a conservative background does, but the fact that you’ve come this far is pretty fucking impressive and says a lot about you!
I think you would really benefit from reading more in to how capitalist superpowers, mainly the US but not only, have not only propagandised you (everyone) in to a complete misunderstanding of what communism and socialism (and anarchism) are, but have actively interfered in pretty much all attempts at socialism and communism guaranteeing they fail (which is also why so many communist experiments end up so heavily militarised - to defend against encroaching capitalists. If capitalism was abolished communism wouldn’t need to constantly be on the defence, leaving less room for dictators to grab power via military means). Here are some starting points:
And just a side note - I’d currently consider myself more of an anarchist than a communist too, mostly because I believe communism will never work if it’s being grown from the ashes of (or still actively opposed by) the oppressive and exploitative systems we all know as the default (or have been made to believe it is, anyway). We need to break down the entire way we educate and socialise as a (currently extremely hierarchal) society before we can get to the full blown fully automated luxury gay communism. But I do believe we can get there, and that it is the best way for society to manage itself.
The unironic worship of the soviet union or communist icons like Mao and Che
Fun how as a leftist who talks to other leftists I’ve never seen this, but literally everybody I’ve ever met that isn’t a leftist parrots this narrative as gospel.
Almost as if leftists don’t actually do that and even the most “liberal” among us are still right wing parrots for whatever narrative furthers the capitalist hellscape
You lost me at “conservatives” & “leftists”.
If someone identifies with either of those groups they’re sheeple that have fallen for one of the various natives pushed by the state & it’s benefactors.
Communism just doesn’t work, there have been plenty of attempts and experiments trying to make it sustainable but all have failed.
Just because I consider myself a leftist doesn’t mean I’m a pure communist. If any of my posts have made clear, I am anti-authoritarian first and foremost, and I believe in compromise rather than fundamentalism.
I believe in mutual aid, and pooling resources as a community, but I don’t think it works at a state level, hence why many states that called themselves communist failed or implemented capitalism to some degree. There are instances of it working at smaller scales like through certain Native American tribes, and attempts made in Spain during the Spanish Civil War.
As long as you are someone who truly believes in human rights and civil liberties, I’ll likely get along with you. I don’t care what you label yourself. If you stand against authoritarians, and are there to help the weak and marginalized, I will call you friend.
![The Whole Fediverse is Wholesome [fixed]](https://media.kbin.social/media/75/34/7534fdd6766a8bc7f83436386577e62a42333384f5e0e25621c1ee00ac70f675.jpg){kind=link}
I’m just against authoritarianism. If you support or worship tyrants past or present, then you’re no friend of mine.
I don’t think it is as black and white as you say though. In general I have faced more bigotry from modern conservatives than I have from leftists. At the same time though the unironic worship of the Soviet Union, or communist icons like Mao and Che leave a bad taste in my mouth. One killed millions of his own people and waged a cultural genocide against traditional Chinese culture and the elderly. Che on the other hand was a homophobic bigot who attempted to eliminate the queer people from Cuba. I understand criticizing Capitalism, and having faith in an economic system that has TBF never been implemented in the way Marx or Ingles would’ve wanted, but to worship the regimes that took the label and did horrible things in its name? I believe in learning from the past rather than trying to recreate it. If communists really want to succeed, they need to stop emulating a failed past, and push towards a new direction.
Liar. You are spewing propaganda. You could read AskHistorians for that.
You are quite reactionary. Seek groups and listen, you need to be participating in collectives to grow as a person.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-you-gay-che-guevara-would-have-sent-you-to-a-concentration_b_59cc0d9ee4b0b99ee4a9ca1e
Not sure if huffpost is a site you would consider trustworthy, but anytime you search for Che and the gay community, its quite consistent with the fact he rounded up the gay and other queer people and had them tortured, raped, and killed.
Look I don’t doubt your commitment to allying with the queer community, but throughout the history of communism, the queer community has also been persecuted by the likes of the Soviet Union, Cuba, hell even China today. Forgive me if my biggest hang up with the communist label are the regimes and people it’s associated with, what they did to people like us.
Do you have anything against these reports though? I can give them a read.
For questions like that pretty much no newspaper is trustworthy.
However you made a claim that is a known propaganda lie, I gave you sources, yet you do not say: “I was wrong, I will delete that sentence from my post and make a disclaimer to it!”, no you try to defend your lie.
You say “while it wasn’t specifically true, you could imagine that over 70 years in some countries of 1.2 billion it might’ve be true somewhere!”
Again, family of mine was prosecuted in the liberal western FRG for homosexuality and sent to prison. 30 years earlier they would’ve ended up in death camps.
Nah … sounds too liberal, don’t trick yourself labeling yourself an anarchist or any other leftie
I like the concepts of Anarchism. Rather than being run by a leader or following a bureaucracy,I believe people can come together as a community to provide the basic needs to each other. I am also queer, a believer in science, an atheist, and anything else that could possibly get me labeled as a “liberal”. Personally I think things work better in moderation rather than as an all or nothing. I may be an anarchists, but I may share some values with a libertarian or an-cap who believes in capitalism. I’m not about to start a fight over which economic system is better, and will likely rely on them for help and resources. I just hope if we are facing down a tyrant or someone who wishes to do harm to the weak and vulnerable within our communities, we would stand together and help each other out.
I do have what would be considered more leftist tendencies, but I’m not a fundamentalist either. I feel through compromise, and mutual aid is how we as humans have survived since antiquity.
Real communism has no leader or bureaucracy, it is defined as a classless moneyless stateless society. Anarchism and socialism are the steps leading there (by removing capitalism and other hierarchy, making room for equity and equality).
Capitalism is the biggest tyrant we face and which is actively doing immeasurable harm to the weak and vulnerable within our communities
It literally needs to create entire classes and sub classes of people it labels “weak and vulnerable” to exist
Completely rejecting communism because of failed and often completely misguided attempts to achieve it, while not outright rejecting anyone who supports capitalism which has been achieved and is actively destroying the planet and everything on it , and explaining that with “minimizing harm” is a really terrible take.
Just gonna edit these in here:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
https://blacklikemao.medium.com/how-liberalism-helps-fascism-d4dbdcb199d9
https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-is-possible-not-in-spite-of-liberal-capitalism-but-because-of-it/
https://nyanarchist.wordpress.com/2019/01/23/scratch-a-liberal-a-fascist-bleeds-how-the-so-called-middle-class-has-enabled-oppression-for-centuries/
The reason I don’t call myself a communist is because I feel it has taken on a different meaning than the one Marx and Engels originally assigned to it. The Soviet Union, The People’s Republic of China, Kampuchia, Cuba, and formerly North Korea have all used the name to describe their governments despite not meeting the criteria by Marx, and they had committed unspeakable evils in its name. I feel utilizing the names, symbols, and legacy of communism without taking the historical weight of them into consideration does a great disservice to the goals of communism. It’s why I even refuse to associate with the hammer and sickle, because to many people, that symbol carries as much weight as a swastika or the rising sun.
It’s actually pretty late for me, but I do want to continue talking later. I’ll even give the reading material a look. I just wanted to air out my grievances with the communist label, and put some context to why I abhor tankies as much as I do fascists.
Are you also against socialism because Hitler called himself a socialist?
Countries like those you named never had actual communism, just like Hitler wasn’t a real socialist. What he and the others did - authoritarianism and dictatorship, are contradictory on the most basic levels to communism and socialism (both are about equity and equality, something that cannot exist if there is a ruling class. Leftist economics cannot exist with anything but leftist values, anything else is inherently incompatible).
Do yourself a favour and unlearn some of the anti-communist propaganda you’ve been socialised with.
There is good reason we call tankies tankies and not communists.
Edit to add: The right has always and continues to co-opt leftist ideas to get in to power, because leftist ideas are actually the popular ones, the problem is when one person or a small group have power, many start off doing it deliberately to get in to power and then abuse it, while others have good intentions but are corrupted by the power they end up with, but either way, once power is centralised in such a way, it is a lot harder to get rid of (it also allows those in power to dictate via the media and the “justice” system who the “in” and “out” groups are to give the people someone to blame that isn’t them).
That’s where anarchism comes in with its ideas of horizontal organisation (I’ll admit I’ve only skimmed this, so I don’t guarantee it’s the best source, but that library is a good place to look these things up anyway) which doesn’t really give any one individual enough power for them to be able to fuck others over with it.
Anyway, I’ve mostly taken the time because I’ve seen you around (not in a creepy way, some avatars just become recognisable after a while) and you seem like you generally “get it” so I’m hoping you’re near enough the edge that I can give you the push you need to join us on the dark side 🏴(black is the anarchism flag) (this isn’t meant to be as sinister, or condescending? sounding as it came out lol sorry!)
The difference between Hitler and the countries I mentioned is that Hitler already has a word associated with his regime: Nazi. When you here it in public, that is the connection you make. Unfortunately that is the same connection people make with communism and people like Stalin or Mao. Regardless of whether the Soviet Union was truly communist or not, it is the country most people associate with the term. Hell, even many leftists make that association, which is why the Soviet flag, communist leaders, and propaganda prints are featured heavily in many communist memes. I agree that the word communism shouldn’t be tied to these regimes forever, but its hard to make a case for reclaiming it when many communist continue to push the association themselves.
Like I said, I mostly agree with the ideal expressed by Engels and Marx, but because of it’s association most people make between communism and the the regimes mentioned above, I think we are doing ourselves a disservice by continuing to gather around symbols and iconography many people in Eastern Europe and Asians associate with imperialism, genocide, and tyranny.
I agree with your second point, which is why I do call myself an anarchist. I believe power is an irresistibly corrupting force, and it doesn’t matter what the intentions are of the people who seize it, if there is too much of it concentrated in the hands of one person, organization, class, or country, it is going to corrupt them. That is why my ideal world would be one with no states, no large governments, no class divisions. where communities can more or less govern themselves according to their needs, and through cooperation and mutual aid, these communities can keep each other afloat, and stand together in times of need. Overly simplified, Let’s say I listen to John Lennon’s Imagine, and wish that could be us.
Yeah, and I’ve seen you around too, and you seem pretty cool, which I why I wanted to carry on this discussion. Forgive me that this thread kinda turned into a communist dunk as that actually wasn’t my intention. I was more to show the types of people I usually see arguing in the threads. And no need for the push, I think anarchists are awesome, and its kinda the journey I took from being a conservative to a leftist. There is still a lot I’m learning and trying to unlearn from my past though.
Thanks for the reading material too.
First of all I’m glad you don’t think I’m a creep lol but also that you’re happy to hear where I’m coming from, I think we’d probably agree on most things…
ow for the messy part lol
Nazi literally stands for “national socialist”, which is why I asked in the first place. There are plenty of people today who still argue that hitler was a leftist because of this connection, and think socialism = genocide. That doesn’t make socialism actually = genocide though, not because there wasn’t genocide, but because there wasn’t socialism. It’s shifting the focus to the wrong part of the problem.
So while I can understand where your view comes from (that bad people ruined a good name so we shouldn’t use the good name anymore) it doesn’t actually stand up in the real world - there will always be people with bad intentions who ruin good things (or simply anything they see as a threat to their power) to attempt to make them “unusable” to those with good intentions, playing in to that only benefits them, not you.
Hell, even “democracy” as we accept it today has nothing to do with actual democracy, but instead it exists to maintain the status quo (by providing the illusion of choice between only 2 parties, both of which work for and uphold capitalism)
literally the definition of communism!
this explains a lot, especially the willingness to still hear out capitalists. I come from a liberal home and upbringing, so while I raised to question the status quo (to an extent anyway) I had (and still do) a lot to unlearn, it’s not quite as much as someone from a conservative background does, but the fact that you’ve come this far is pretty fucking impressive and says a lot about you!
I think you would really benefit from reading more in to how capitalist superpowers, mainly the US but not only, have not only propagandised you (everyone) in to a complete misunderstanding of what communism and socialism (and anarchism) are, but have actively interfered in pretty much all attempts at socialism and communism guaranteeing they fail (which is also why so many communist experiments end up so heavily militarised - to defend against encroaching capitalists. If capitalism was abolished communism wouldn’t need to constantly be on the defence, leaving less room for dictators to grab power via military means). Here are some starting points:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/truman-doctrine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/the-indonesia-documents-and-the-us-agenda/543534/
https://blog.uvm.edu/sosten-centralamerica/2019/04/16/u-s-intervention-in-central-america-1970-present/
And just a side note - I’d currently consider myself more of an anarchist than a communist too, mostly because I believe communism will never work if it’s being grown from the ashes of (or still actively opposed by) the oppressive and exploitative systems we all know as the default (or have been made to believe it is, anyway). We need to break down the entire way we educate and socialise as a (currently extremely hierarchal) society before we can get to the full blown fully automated luxury gay communism. But I do believe we can get there, and that it is the best way for society to manage itself.
Fun how as a leftist who talks to other leftists I’ve never seen this, but literally everybody I’ve ever met that isn’t a leftist parrots this narrative as gospel.
Almost as if leftists don’t actually do that and even the most “liberal” among us are still right wing parrots for whatever narrative furthers the capitalist hellscape
You lost me at “conservatives” & “leftists”.
If someone identifies with either of those groups they’re sheeple that have fallen for one of the various natives pushed by the state & it’s benefactors.
Communism just doesn’t work, there have been plenty of attempts and experiments trying to make it sustainable but all have failed.
Just because I consider myself a leftist doesn’t mean I’m a pure communist. If any of my posts have made clear, I am anti-authoritarian first and foremost, and I believe in compromise rather than fundamentalism.
I believe in mutual aid, and pooling resources as a community, but I don’t think it works at a state level, hence why many states that called themselves communist failed or implemented capitalism to some degree. There are instances of it working at smaller scales like through certain Native American tribes, and attempts made in Spain during the Spanish Civil War.
As long as you are someone who truly believes in human rights and civil liberties, I’ll likely get along with you. I don’t care what you label yourself. If you stand against authoritarians, and are there to help the weak and marginalized, I will call you friend.
I think you don’t really know what you are but you seem to be trying to bully a group out of this community which isn’t a good look.