Interesting article!

I haven’t been in a dedicated men only group chat but I can imagine that if you get the right guys in a group it might just be „that easy“. I think it’s a great space to try and model how you want to interact with your peers.

And I’m glad to hear that the author has that support group in his life :)

I personally also find it a bit easier to share heavy topics over texting rather than talking.

Interesting article!

I haven’t been in a dedicated men only group chat but I can imagine that if you get the right guys in a group it might just be „that easy“. I think it’s a great space to try and model how you want to interact with your peers.

And I’m glad to hear that the author has that support group in his life :)

I personally also find it a bit easier to share heavy topics over texting rather than talking.

I like Dr. K and I like the video.

I like how he articulates how emotions or circumstances are constructed for men to be solved. Not to be articulated, pondered upon and to feel much about. If you have a problem you should solve it basically. “Man the fuck up” as he points out.

His depiction of “men atriculating feelings differently” with showcasing how men can be kind of “harsh/unfriendly” in their communication of affection (basically soft bullying/negging in his examples) instead of saying: hey I really like you and stuff. He calls it negative expression for positive affection is fine I think. Tangent: [But I dunno - like I know I just read The will to change form Bell Hooks and am so happy she really writes what I’ve been thinking and mulling about for years - but I am missing this critique of what we are taught and into what social constructs we are born into. Dr. K mentions that we are taught this and I get that he doesn’t wanna get too political about it. But why are “all men like this” and why can’t men escape this even if they tried? I’d argue it’s because socialisation and patriachy keeps it that way. The idea that men have to be domineering, controlling and a leader at all times. And this totally warped perception that control and domination can only be linked to (physical) violence and the readiness to use it as well as emotional coldness and distance.] Tangent over

I like that he really touches upon the physicality of emotions, that psychotherapy is often just the talking cure but that there are also physical ways of dealing with strong emotions. I also like that he states that he feels that hugging feels more important to men than his women clients. But here I’d also argue that it is linked to my aforementioned tangent. That it is this artifical distance men are forced into that starves them from literal connection/touch.

I also like him mentioning different/supplemental therapies more geared towards men. There are a lot of upcoming/developing therapy approaches. I know the last time I looked it up I found one centred around “adventure therapy” which sounded like a 5-day nature retreat for men only where they were hiking, and doing survival stuffs while talking in the evening/ in between exercises to connect.

So yeah, I think it’s an informative video. Personally I would’ve loved some feminist partiachial critique of male socialisation yada yada. Otherwise thanks for sharing, I only had it on my to watch list, but you gave me the push to commit for it :)

Edit: I’d honestly say that while I think it is alright to not feel as articulate about your own emotions I think it is just a good practice to at least consistently try to get better at it. So much of our communication with others is easier when we get across what we truly want. So I think talking is really effective (but obviously I love talking with this wall of text:))

I’ve been starting to read Bell Hooks - The will to change and am really liking it.

It really encapsulates a lot of my positions concerning men liberation through feminist means and perspectives.

In other news I’m trying to keep socialising with friends and discussing ideas/feelings and dreams and it sometimes feels a bit over the top but it mostly feels very nice.

I’ll resume my Masters next year and recently started reading The Will to Change by Bell Hooks

and I’m flabbergasted that there is literature about topics I felt like I was developing a personal opinion about :D Otherwise I’m struggling with a person in my friend group who feels so disinterested in everything and mostly just annoyed and combative. As I usually game in my free time it’s ridiculous to me to have such an incredibly bad mood in your free time and when spending time with friends for MONTHS. rant over

Imposter syndrome is for sure hard to shake. For how long has it been going on?

And yeah meddling family is also totally my typical nightmare

That does sound more than rough and harsh :( I’m sorry to hear that you are so alone and that it has such a negative development. Especially as it sounds like you are the only one still fighting for the marriage. :/

Haha but yeah I totally get that :D Some things I basically only do for my partner cuz they are so incredibly important to them, but I would never do them. One of those things is that when I was outside using public transport I always change my clothes at home lest I bring the germs onto our furniture (I dunno if that is remotely how it works) but I’ve grown kind of accustomed to it - when he’s not at home for a while I immediately stop doing it though xD

I recently also watched something by the Gottman Institute. https://youtu.be/AKTyPgwfPgg?si=O3X3vrNUIlVFx27M The way I understand it he’s a researcher on relationships with another researcher and they really study how relationships work in being positive experiences for both. He also very clearly argues that communication WITH and responding positively to your partner are key factors. I honestly didn’t have many relationships before my currently longterm one so I’m usually always looking for other perspectives on how to feel/understand our topics in the relationship. How long has your rleationship been going on for now?

And yes I always think that’s funny how fringe groups are sometimes so knowledgeable about certain topics. On the other hand I know it from my outing and living as a gay man. Like you were so forced to be confronted with your own desires being “deviant” from normal issues that you are so forced to do a deep dive into the thematic and really explore it, understand it and sometimes subvert it outright. And yes the way I remember it I also felt comfortable in BDSM places of communication but found polyamourous a bit more approachble :D

WELLLLLL those are a lot of overlaps between us :D I’m doing an MSc in Psychology, it should be alright honestly, like I know it’s gotta be manageable and I performed well in the years before, I’m just a bit anxious in general I would say xD So the wait for it is harder for me >.< In the last year I can mostly do stuff to specialise which is going to be male socialisation and men mental health issues and stuff. So I’m quite hopeful I’ll do alright :D What’s your master in? :) And I think it’s cool that you gave it another shot. I honestly think studying is fun, as is any kind of learning that resonates with you. And you do strike me as a curious person :) I can totally see how in some parts of our life studying just doesn’t fit.

And I play League of Legends xD Two peas in a pod for real :D They recently took away the game mode I REALLY enjoyed playing with a friend so it feels like a chore currently, I totally feel you there. Dota 2 felt a bit to complx for me when I played it for a while AGES ago :D

You are right I should totally read it. I recently listened/read “This is how you lose the time wars” and also greatly enjoyed it. I think in the past I consumed short stories way more often and always greatly enjoyed the experience.

Oh I am so happy you also liked the video! Yeah it felt like such a good takedown of it. I remember when I started being interested in relationship advice and I always felt that r/relationship(advice) was always hella toxic :D I really liked the polyamourous folk on reddit though. They were usually heavily centred on trying to communicate and accomodate the needs of our partner. Which - I’m still monogamous - felt like how I want to engage with my relationships. There have been some distinct moments for me where I was assuming how my partner wanted stuff or what I should want and it’s usually been a pretty stupid experience to realise it’s just not what I/they wanted. AND I think relationships change so much over time. Like we just become different people/versions of ourselves and it is constant work to stay aligned and in sync with your partner. Sure there are moments where it just works and you can read their mind but I think it’s healthy to acknowledge that that’s not always the case :X

Honestly - I only saw Everything Everywhere all at once last year and totally loved it, otherwise I was more focused on series I would say. I really liked Severance and Silo, but I’m a huuuuuuuuuge sucker for SciFi especially when the social commentary is really being explored.

Besides that I’ve been mostly just randomly watchng youtube videos and played some games. I’m starting my last master’s year in 2 weeks so I’ve been looking forward and dreading it at the same time xD I feel like I’ve been studying for sooo many years now (part-time mostly) that I shouldn’t feel such tumultous emotions, but yeah my body disagrees xD

What are you doing on your end that you don’t end up super bored? :)

Uh yes the social construction of meaning yes I totally see that view yes. Especially the sapir-whorf hypothesis as well with how you speak/what language you speak influences the way we can only make sense of our reality for sure!

I think my interpretation came from the last few frames of Amy Adams really embraving her relationship with her future husband while prior learning that they were going to split up eventually but still embracing all the good that would be coming her way even though it is intermingled with grief and loss and frustration. To me (but I guess I just love being a tragic person? :D) that speaks to her opening up to life, to a message of: we have to be open for all to have a full life. Especially with the prior framing of Amy in her house being very calm, disconnected and uninterested in anything really. But I would say it’s only one perspective on the film, next time I rewatch it, I’ll think about your perspective more :)

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I do think you answered the question quite well. I think yours is a perfect example how supposedly privileged men can struggle/suffer in a patriachial system and how we all have so many thing to relearn.

Being in touch with my emotions has been a neverending experience for me as well, as well as articulating and sharing them with loved ones. I do hope your experience is getting better in that regard and that your wife sees how her rejection of your emotions is hurtful for you. Conversely, maybe when you find ways to express less extreme emotions you both have the opportunity to practice for the when the bigger emotions eventually come around again to be more aligned and feel more heard and validated by your partner.

Start of this year I really had to grow and get better at telling people how I felt cuz I was rather depressive and it was really tough communicating in what ways I felt low and how I felt like my control was slipping away from me. For me it was sometimes easier to think of my emotions like a picture I describe to someone else. My typical example of how I experience fear for example is this feeling of bitter cold in my gut and this horrible silence that is giving me the acute sense of: we cannot think right now, because any second now your life will become a total desaster and I just freeze up and cannot think/feel/do anything else.

You are making my days btw with these responses, it feels really nice to write with you. And now that I know you love Arrival, what are other movies that you really liked? :3

Well I’ll go for that book then and might come back to you when I have read it! Sounds amazing that is has that effect on you - I’ve heard a lot of good stuff about Bell Hooks so it’s nice to get further confirmation :)

Yes Arrival with the aliens from Dennis Villeneuve ( god I’m bad at speeeelling and rememberkng names)

https://youtu.be/jcbEiZQ9B7o?si=Av-A4JNSkrWhoK-Q This was the video I watched from her. I’ve watched a lot of essayist going for an hour so I also liked her keeping it to half an hour :D

What’s the thing that has been most affected of your stance on masculinity by her book would you say?

I’ve only now watched a few videos of oliSUNvia (I hope I spelled that right) - especially her popular video about how love is portrayed felt quite accurate to me. That the focus is usually that you are getting love and not how it is also a very active practice.

Then I am still debating on what Bell Hooks Book I wanna give a spin.

I also watched Arrival again. And thought about how it could be seen as a stoicist take on life that we have to embrace potential hurt and tragedy and be open for the unknown to blossom.

Those would be my takeaways from August. How about you and thanks for asking :)

So glad I got around to watching it - was perfect during cooking.

I really resonated with the perspective of how supporting the prison system or judicial system is fundamentally in support of a status quo and a way of not changing inherent system issues and problems like wellfare, housing, immigration statuses, brutal policing. Saying that getting an abuser arrested is **always ** the right choice in this carceral feminist perspective is I think harmful as Olisunvia points out. I also really appreciated how she touched upon the topic that calls for transformative or restorative justice don’t mean that victims are meant to always forgive abusers or even use the current systems.

Generally the attitude to hold an either/and perspective of acknowledging that someone is an abuser and has done harm while still also acknowledging that they themselves can be a victim and symptoms of the system is very valuable to have I think. I don’t think it’s a perspective we can always hold but I think it’s incredibly constructive in making sense of the social realities we live in.

Thanks for sharing the video - I had only seen her before during a F.D Signifier video and never checked her out individually, but I like her very articulate way of framing the discourse.

Free Talk Friday sounds nice to me - maybe even as @Lettuce mentioned with a leading question or a hook for engagement?

Otherwise maybe a monthly media/book exchange, basically a more focused place to share what we have been reading, consuming or something that is relevant for us/masculinity?

Thanks for asking though spaduf :)

that patriarchy might ostensibly benefit men – even while poisoning them in a myriad of ways – but it is upheld by all genders, particularly within spaces like romantic partnership

With this quote I was reminded of many retellings of men in hetero relationship who still vividly remembered hurtful moments of being shamed when opening up and being vulnerable.

As the article states I would argue it’s wrong to assume that just one gender is at fault for the status quo, but that it is maintained by multiple actors.

And yes I’ve seen a lot of heteropessimism online and even partially irl but I think it’s breeding ground are „taking things for granted“ and just assuming what partners would like or want in relationships. Needs can be so diverse and deeply personal that I’d argue while there is possibility to feel safe in following a relationship script we have to dare to explore each other in our uniqueness and thereby also share ourselves authentically and that’s a forever journey.

Thank you for the nice read spaduf! (by the way is that a pun on the pokemon or am I nerding out?)

Goodness what an appalling thing to read. I grew up catholic (I haven’t been religious for more than a decade already) and still have to shake my head about the ban women face there to even become clergywomen.

The idea that there should be segregation based on sex is just so fundamentally weird to me especially in the example of boarding public transit.

I do hope this worrying trend is circumvented because it’s become abundantly clear in present times that the moment rights/laws are lost, a long battle is needed to regain them.

Like is this ultraconservative trend so appealing because people feel the past was SOMEHOW more appealing than the current times? I totally do not get it but thank you for sharing!

As @akasazh says baby steps for sure and you got this!

I would argue however that there is a boogeyman that you can blame and that is capitalism, so there is always that.

Additionally as you have yourself mentioned just because we live in a partiachial society that doesn’t mean that cis white men are always just winners, so I think the feeling of being overwhelmed and on your own and downtrodden by the system can be totally valid. Similarly to what @cmbabul mentioned, sure you can be a little bit more up the ladder but we are most likely all quite far away from the top :)

I hope that you feel empowered to reach out to others and connect. I am sure others share your sentiment. I think Lemmy has DMs so if you ever wanna just chat feel free to write me :)

Thank you for sharing!

I wholeheartedly agree but I would also argue that F.D. has a similar take at least the way I see it.

I would say he argues that while right grifters are nothing new they were usually not as successful and medially present as they are today. He attributes this to the fact that media engagement is the only metric that counts and that any sharing of a video leads to it being more present in the algorithm. Additionally he argues that in the past most men were able to eventually get a job and support themselves and a family and that with the rise of neoliberalism and worsening wages and inflation the rate of men who are able to do that has shrunk drastically leading to a rise of mental health illnesses but also suicides and other Deaths of Despair. Which have become a somewhat breeding ground for grifters to enrapture more men to their cause with their false promises.

Finally he argues that it is not in the interest to even try to appeal to men the same way the right does as it is - as you have yourself stated - fundamentally antithetical to our causes and beliefs. But that the focus should always be placed on changing the system and being active in our communities. And that changes to the system have to be understood as being beneficial to men as well (duh!).

So I think maybe my framing of his video was a bit too shallow, but thank you for posting your comment. I feel the same way especially in that “the left has failed men” has become an incredible oversimplification for a multilayered problem

Yeah I concur.

In general as you have said I think it’s wild that we try to individualise success and failures so much when the economic position of our parents is the most reliable predictor for success.

Thanks for sharing, I haven’t thought about this perspective in a long time!

Uh thanks for linking it! I hadn’t seen the discussion!

I also liked the historical contexts :)