Excuse me but what the fuck are you going on about irrational fear? Do you live in unicorn sparkle land? I’m regularly followed by absolute creeps and people will yell and get physically aggravated at me if I turn them down wrong and personally I don’t know a single femme person where this isn’t just a known risk of going outside. I’ve literally had a gun pulled on me in broad daylight in the middle of town and they followed me in their car for several blocks. My partner had someone yell at them while taking out trash “One of these days I’m going to kill one of you fucking c*nts”. I’ve been molested in a parking lot while there were people around. We don’t even live in sketchy neighborhoods. The fear is not irrational and not unfounded and we never know which of these encounters could end in assault or death so we have to assume and act in a way to prep for the worst
I think people don’t realize that because we are fearful, we take a lot of extra precaution to avoid being put into situations that could spiral out of control. It’s almost like a survivorship bias.
Excuse me but what the fuck are you going on about irrational fear?
It is objectively irrational to actively fear something that happens to 0.0014% (that’s 14% of 1% of 1%) of the population (and I was specifically talking about “being killed”, which is what I quoted–you’re not trying to move the goalposts by pretending I was talking about anything else, are you~?), whether you like it or not. You should be dozens of times more terrified to ever step in a car than to reject a man, if things were in proportion. But, because your fear is irrational, you’re not.
Given that you indeed shoved those goalposts a large distance from what I was saying in the rest of your comment, and that I see from your comment history that you believe in the “patriarchy” conspiracy theory, it’s clear to me it would serve no purpose to seriously discuss anything on this topic with you.
336,199,359 people, more or less. And that is both male and female. If we’re talking numbers of women murdered, how about you use the number of women in the USA, not the numbers of both women and men?
And while we’re at it, how about you include the number of women who are doxxed, beaten, and raped too? It isn’t just murder. 1 in 4 women in the US have dealt with harassment from a man, often times serious harassment. That it doesn’t always end in murder doesn’t make it less of a problem.
You’re right that it might not make sense to worry about being killed in particular, but the person you responded to described a series of genuinely scary situations, and it isn’t irrational to be fearful for your safety in those moments. But then you had to go and say,
Given that you indeed shoved those goalposts a large distance from what I was saying in the rest of your comment, and that I see from your comment history that you believe in the “patriarchy” conspiracy theory, it’s clear to me it would serve no purpose to seriously discuss anything on this topic with you.
and oooooh, you really lost me there, not gonna lie. I’m curious of your understanding of “the patriarchy” is different than mine, but surely you recognize that we live in a male-dominated society, no?
the person you responded to described a series of genuinely scary situations, and it isn’t irrational to be fearful for your safety in those moments
Good thing my comment was under a quote only talking about being killed, making it obvious I was only talking about that one thing.
The grand irony in the phrase “women fear being killed”, juxtaposed against men fearing something else, as if they have no reason to fear being killed by comparison, is that the other sex is killed far, far more often. Imagine someone saying “women fear chipped nails, men fear breast cancer”, for an idea of how abhorrent and sexist “men fear rejection, women fear being killed” actually is.
I’m curious of your understanding of “the patriarchy” is different than mine, but surely you recognize that we live in a male-dominated society, no?
What feminists et al call “the patriarchy” is just the collective of social standards and expectations, which do obviously exist, but the ‘conspiracy theory’ part is in the deliberate anti-male name they use for it, attributing all of it to some sort of sinister male plot, within the equally-bullshit ‘males are all predators, females are all victims’ narrative, by giving this collective a name that places all of the agency and blame at the feet of men. This is done plenty of other times by the same group of ideologues; a couple of examples:
The act of assuming someone lacks knowledge because of a trait of theirs that has no actual relationship to having said knowledge is called “mansplaining”, creating the false narrative that only men do it, they only do it to women, and that being a woman is the only ‘irrelevant trait’. Fact is, both sexes do this, TO both sexes, for many reasons, including but not nearly limited to their sex.
When a fanny pack is marketed to men by using camouflage or gunmetal color schemes in the packaging, it’s because of “male fragility” (i.e. men are so terrified of possessing a stereotypically-female thing that they won’t buy it otherwise). When a set of tools is marketed to women by using floral or pink color schemes, it’s magically no longer ‘fragility’, but an oppressive misogynist plot by the evil corporation.
The fact is that all of the commonly-complained about harmful elements of “the patriarchy” (e.g. the imposition of harmful sex stereotypes on individuals of both sexes), are things both put into place, and maintained perpetuated, by men AND women. Even topics like abortion are falsely characterized as being a strictly male (pro-life) vs. female (pro-choice) issue, when the fact is that the percentage of women who are pro-life, and of men who are pro-choice, are both in the 40s!
All of this “patriarchy” and adjacent crap is just bigoted ideologues creating division where it doesn’t exist, down to giving things that do exist deliberately misleading names that absolve and remove all agency from the in group, in order to blame it all on the out group.
What feminists et al call “the patriarchy” is just the collective of social standards and expectations, which do obviously exist, but the ‘conspiracy theory’ part is in the deliberate anti-male name they use for it
Right? I feel like the person you replied to is one of the people I would avoid in public. Especially since they don’t show a shred of empathy for the real fear women in this country have of being assaulted or murdered by a man with anger issues.
And that’s not even getting into those who suffer from domestic violence.
Radical idea, how about you don’t try and pull this on someone who has stated that they are in the cohort of people who has experienced this type of violence repeatedly with examples?
It is incredibly invalidating to have someone try and use percentages to tell you what you should and shouldn’t be afraid of when you have already had legitimate cause to fear for your safety in the past. This person is not the audience for that and you are only going to make them more afraid because you have demonstrated that you place objective percentages based on wider population demographics over their personal lived experience… Which is a jerk thing to do because what it ACTUALLY does is make a previously victimized person relive experiences of other invalidations they experienced following the traumatic events and deepens their overall distrust of people to care and take what happened to them seriously.
You are trying to score points to prove you’re right at the expense of someone’s overall well being when you do this. Even if you are right it’s a shitty thing to do to a person.
Rare bad things have happened to me, too. But recognizing that they are indeed rare is important, arguably even more so because I have faced it.
Fearing that something bad that’s happened to you will happen again, is natural and understandable, it’s how the human brain works.
Doesn’t make it not irrational, though. Don’t take as a personal insult the stating of that fact. It’s also not “invalidation” to state that fact, as the fact is literally not a direct comment on anything you actually experienced in your actual individual life.
This is coming from someone who was molested by an older girl as a child. Should I fear and suspect all older women? Racists also use this logic to try and justify being ‘wary’ of all members of a race after having some bad experience with one or a few individuals of that race.
The irony of all this is that you’re interpreting my words as a personal attack on you, when it’s literally healthier to get yourself out of the mindset that ‘bad men are everywhere and the next trauma is around every corner waiting to strike’. That’s no way to live.
I want to see people not swallowed whole by their traumas.
Rare bad things have happened to me, too. But recognizing that they are indeed rare is important, arguably even more so because I have faced it.
Survivorship bias. Women take far more considerations than men do. You believe I think twice about going out at night to the store? My wife was accosted twice in a month doing that, so she never did it again. And look, accosting is down! Why worry, it’s on the decline!
Bad thing happened to my wife 2 times and me 0 times so you’re wrong because my reality is everyone’s reality
Imagine a guy saying “Domestic violence doesn’t exist; I’ve never seen a man hit his girlfriend/wife”, and how stupid you’d think he was for saying that.
I am not the person you originally spoke to and I do not feel myself personally attacked. I am also not someone who has experienced this particular trauma but I have experienced some fairly nasty trauma in other fields none-the-less.
Your method of healing your personal trauma does not mend theirs and you are not presenting it in an empathetic way. You are trying to shame them and humiliate them for seeming silly for their experiences by trying to treat them as hysterical. There are ways to de-escalate a fear reaponse in people but that isn’t what you’re doing. You are not listening when someone routinely is telling you they aren’t ready and trying to force your framework on them to make yourself feel justified. Recognize your audience. If someone is going to de-escalate their fear response it is going to be a conscious process over time, not from a random stranger on the internet swaggering up and saying “I have numbers”. Who knows where the person you are talking to might be coming from? They may be in a community that is suffering a disproportional problem where that fear might actually be logical.
Rather than YOU feeling attacked about where she’s coming and trying to strike back maybe realize - if you’ve managed to deal with your traumas you have the advantage of an emotional distance they do not. Use that distance to display empathy to that situation or back off because you are not going to make anything better otherwise. Do you want to be right or do you want to do good because sometimes you have to choose.
Ever heard the saying “it’s not your fault, but it is your responsibility”?
When someone’s irrational/exaggerated fear becomes manifested as sexism, that manifestation absolutely deserves to get shut down, emphatically. If they don’t like that, it’s too damn bad, you are responsible for the statements you make, regardless of what traumas you’ve suffered.
I empathize with the trauma, not with the sexism. There is a difference, and no trauma excuses bigotry.
I stand by all I’ve said. No one would excuse a white person using the same logic to imply they’re justified in constantly fearing violence from black people, no matter how many black people may have done something bad to them in their past.
Half the problem with a lot of these discussions is that they devolve into the “I’ve been wronged” kyriarchy Olympics where people are not content to simply be wronged but they must be the most wronged and everyone else must be smacked for even implying that they are also wronged . She was doing it AND you are doing it too. She’s just reflecting your energy back at you Neither of you are going to get far until you can shelve your individually held needs long enough to recognize the other’s. Yes you were hurt, so were they but they are never going to offer YOU empathy if you can’t demonstrate you understand their fear is real to them.
Remember that women’s indoctrination for all the things they need to watch for to keep themselves safe starts early and there are very rare places in the world where they actually venture out after dark alone without fear. They are taught from childhood that there be monsters, that they are helpless, that they have to be suspicious and wary. You don’t treat fear that has been cultivated since childhood by the people training you to be an adult by dismissal. You don’t treat any fear by dismissal.
You want to talk about owning your shit? This isn’t a race to claim the most victimhood - that is toxic as shit. You want to change things for the better make people feel heard and ask what tools they need to feel safe. Make everyone feel safer and more supported rather than like they can’t trust you to care about anything but your own shit because yeah their fear is your problem. But if you can’t properly engage with it it is never going to go away.
The only reason I mentioned anything about what happened to me, was to make an example of the fact that if I had made a shitty sexist statement about women and tried to use that trauma to justify it, I would be, rightly, lambasted for it. I did not say a single thing to even begin to imply any sort of comparison of severity between us. Shame on you for that ridiculous accusation. The irony is that the entire second paragraph of your comment is, literally, actual ‘oppression olympics’ behavior–you mention all of that with no point other than ‘we have it bad so shut up’.
Trauma does not justify sexism. Period. And the sexism is what I called out. Just like a white guy getting mugged by a black guy doesn’t get to get away with implying he’s justified in fearing all black people. I wonder if you’d jump to such a guy’s defense, wagging your finger at anyone who calls out his racist statement, telling them they’re ‘dismissing his fear’. How ludicrous.
You are very tiring. Honestly it’s very difficult to empathize with someone who keeps trying so god damn hard to borrow other forms of oppression to validate their own.
I am sympathetic to men and women in regards to the issues that plague both but for fuck sake. If you don’t understand the mechanics of how to foster empathy you are just going to become bitter and angry. Yes, Talk about the things that make you feel oppressed but don’t try and do so as with the intention to shut someone else down as a counter to someone else venting their issues. Create your own moment where you talk about how this stuff in isolation of other people’s shit . That’s how you make your issues known while not seeming like a raging narcissistic ass.
Your problem is only tangentially sexism related. In reality it’s is not understanding basic social dynamics.
Excuse me but what the fuck are you going on about irrational fear? Do you live in unicorn sparkle land? I’m regularly followed by absolute creeps and people will yell and get physically aggravated at me if I turn them down wrong and personally I don’t know a single femme person where this isn’t just a known risk of going outside. I’ve literally had a gun pulled on me in broad daylight in the middle of town and they followed me in their car for several blocks. My partner had someone yell at them while taking out trash “One of these days I’m going to kill one of you fucking c*nts”. I’ve been molested in a parking lot while there were people around. We don’t even live in sketchy neighborhoods. The fear is not irrational and not unfounded and we never know which of these encounters could end in assault or death so we have to assume and act in a way to prep for the worst
I think people don’t realize that because we are fearful, we take a lot of extra precaution to avoid being put into situations that could spiral out of control. It’s almost like a survivorship bias.
It is objectively irrational to actively fear something that happens to 0.0014% (that’s 14% of 1% of 1%) of the population (and I was specifically talking about “being killed”, which is what I quoted–you’re not trying to move the goalposts by pretending I was talking about anything else, are you~?), whether you like it or not. You should be dozens of times more terrified to ever step in a car than to reject a man, if things were in proportion. But, because your fear is irrational, you’re not.
Given that you indeed shoved those goalposts a large distance from what I was saying in the rest of your comment, and that I see from your comment history that you believe in the “patriarchy” conspiracy theory, it’s clear to me it would serve no purpose to seriously discuss anything on this topic with you.
336,199,359 people, more or less. And that is both male and female. If we’re talking numbers of women murdered, how about you use the number of women in the USA, not the numbers of both women and men?
And while we’re at it, how about you include the number of women who are doxxed, beaten, and raped too? It isn’t just murder. 1 in 4 women in the US have dealt with harassment from a man, often times serious harassment. That it doesn’t always end in murder doesn’t make it less of a problem.
You’re right that it might not make sense to worry about being killed in particular, but the person you responded to described a series of genuinely scary situations, and it isn’t irrational to be fearful for your safety in those moments. But then you had to go and say,
and oooooh, you really lost me there, not gonna lie. I’m curious of your understanding of “the patriarchy” is different than mine, but surely you recognize that we live in a male-dominated society, no?
Good thing my comment was under a quote only talking about being killed, making it obvious I was only talking about that one thing.
The grand irony in the phrase “women fear being killed”, juxtaposed against men fearing something else, as if they have no reason to fear being killed by comparison, is that the other sex is killed far, far more often. Imagine someone saying “women fear chipped nails, men fear breast cancer”, for an idea of how abhorrent and sexist “men fear rejection, women fear being killed” actually is.
What feminists et al call “the patriarchy” is just the collective of social standards and expectations, which do obviously exist, but the ‘conspiracy theory’ part is in the deliberate anti-male name they use for it, attributing all of it to some sort of sinister male plot, within the equally-bullshit ‘males are all predators, females are all victims’ narrative, by giving this collective a name that places all of the agency and blame at the feet of men. This is done plenty of other times by the same group of ideologues; a couple of examples:
The fact is that all of the commonly-complained about harmful elements of “the patriarchy” (e.g. the imposition of harmful sex stereotypes on individuals of both sexes), are things both put into place, and maintained perpetuated, by men AND women. Even topics like abortion are falsely characterized as being a strictly male (pro-life) vs. female (pro-choice) issue, when the fact is that the percentage of women who are pro-life, and of men who are pro-choice, are both in the 40s!
All of this “patriarchy” and adjacent crap is just bigoted ideologues creating division where it doesn’t exist, down to giving things that do exist deliberately misleading names that absolve and remove all agency from the in group, in order to blame it all on the out group.
Yikes.
Right? I feel like the person you replied to is one of the people I would avoid in public. Especially since they don’t show a shred of empathy for the real fear women in this country have of being assaulted or murdered by a man with anger issues.
And that’s not even getting into those who suffer from domestic violence.
Yeah the 3rd comment down if you sort by Top is:
Seriously, what the hell happened here?
yeah for serious “woah”. I replied earlier up and I wish I hadn’t bothered now.
I definitely am less happy with the overall Lemmy crowd knowing just how many are out-and-out misogynists.
Radical idea, how about you don’t try and pull this on someone who has stated that they are in the cohort of people who has experienced this type of violence repeatedly with examples?
It is incredibly invalidating to have someone try and use percentages to tell you what you should and shouldn’t be afraid of when you have already had legitimate cause to fear for your safety in the past. This person is not the audience for that and you are only going to make them more afraid because you have demonstrated that you place objective percentages based on wider population demographics over their personal lived experience… Which is a jerk thing to do because what it ACTUALLY does is make a previously victimized person relive experiences of other invalidations they experienced following the traumatic events and deepens their overall distrust of people to care and take what happened to them seriously.
You are trying to score points to prove you’re right at the expense of someone’s overall well being when you do this. Even if you are right it’s a shitty thing to do to a person.
Rare bad things have happened to me, too. But recognizing that they are indeed rare is important, arguably even more so because I have faced it.
Fearing that something bad that’s happened to you will happen again, is natural and understandable, it’s how the human brain works.
Doesn’t make it not irrational, though. Don’t take as a personal insult the stating of that fact. It’s also not “invalidation” to state that fact, as the fact is literally not a direct comment on anything you actually experienced in your actual individual life.
This is coming from someone who was molested by an older girl as a child. Should I fear and suspect all older women? Racists also use this logic to try and justify being ‘wary’ of all members of a race after having some bad experience with one or a few individuals of that race.
The irony of all this is that you’re interpreting my words as a personal attack on you, when it’s literally healthier to get yourself out of the mindset that ‘bad men are everywhere and the next trauma is around every corner waiting to strike’. That’s no way to live.
I want to see people not swallowed whole by their traumas.
Survivorship bias. Women take far more considerations than men do. You believe I think twice about going out at night to the store? My wife was accosted twice in a month doing that, so she never did it again. And look, accosting is down! Why worry, it’s on the decline!
Imagine a guy saying “Domestic violence doesn’t exist; I’ve never seen a man hit his girlfriend/wife”, and how stupid you’d think he was for saying that.
Now you know how you’re being perceived.
I am not the person you originally spoke to and I do not feel myself personally attacked. I am also not someone who has experienced this particular trauma but I have experienced some fairly nasty trauma in other fields none-the-less.
Your method of healing your personal trauma does not mend theirs and you are not presenting it in an empathetic way. You are trying to shame them and humiliate them for seeming silly for their experiences by trying to treat them as hysterical. There are ways to de-escalate a fear reaponse in people but that isn’t what you’re doing. You are not listening when someone routinely is telling you they aren’t ready and trying to force your framework on them to make yourself feel justified. Recognize your audience. If someone is going to de-escalate their fear response it is going to be a conscious process over time, not from a random stranger on the internet swaggering up and saying “I have numbers”. Who knows where the person you are talking to might be coming from? They may be in a community that is suffering a disproportional problem where that fear might actually be logical.
Rather than YOU feeling attacked about where she’s coming and trying to strike back maybe realize - if you’ve managed to deal with your traumas you have the advantage of an emotional distance they do not. Use that distance to display empathy to that situation or back off because you are not going to make anything better otherwise. Do you want to be right or do you want to do good because sometimes you have to choose.
Ever heard the saying “it’s not your fault, but it is your responsibility”?
When someone’s irrational/exaggerated fear becomes manifested as sexism, that manifestation absolutely deserves to get shut down, emphatically. If they don’t like that, it’s too damn bad, you are responsible for the statements you make, regardless of what traumas you’ve suffered.
I empathize with the trauma, not with the sexism. There is a difference, and no trauma excuses bigotry.
I stand by all I’ve said. No one would excuse a white person using the same logic to imply they’re justified in constantly fearing violence from black people, no matter how many black people may have done something bad to them in their past.
This is no different.
Half the problem with a lot of these discussions is that they devolve into the “I’ve been wronged” kyriarchy Olympics where people are not content to simply be wronged but they must be the most wronged and everyone else must be smacked for even implying that they are also wronged . She was doing it AND you are doing it too. She’s just reflecting your energy back at you Neither of you are going to get far until you can shelve your individually held needs long enough to recognize the other’s. Yes you were hurt, so were they but they are never going to offer YOU empathy if you can’t demonstrate you understand their fear is real to them.
Remember that women’s indoctrination for all the things they need to watch for to keep themselves safe starts early and there are very rare places in the world where they actually venture out after dark alone without fear. They are taught from childhood that there be monsters, that they are helpless, that they have to be suspicious and wary. You don’t treat fear that has been cultivated since childhood by the people training you to be an adult by dismissal. You don’t treat any fear by dismissal.
You want to talk about owning your shit? This isn’t a race to claim the most victimhood - that is toxic as shit. You want to change things for the better make people feel heard and ask what tools they need to feel safe. Make everyone feel safer and more supported rather than like they can’t trust you to care about anything but your own shit because yeah their fear is your problem. But if you can’t properly engage with it it is never going to go away.
The only reason I mentioned anything about what happened to me, was to make an example of the fact that if I had made a shitty sexist statement about women and tried to use that trauma to justify it, I would be, rightly, lambasted for it. I did not say a single thing to even begin to imply any sort of comparison of severity between us. Shame on you for that ridiculous accusation. The irony is that the entire second paragraph of your comment is, literally, actual ‘oppression olympics’ behavior–you mention all of that with no point other than ‘we have it bad so shut up’.
Trauma does not justify sexism. Period. And the sexism is what I called out. Just like a white guy getting mugged by a black guy doesn’t get to get away with implying he’s justified in fearing all black people. I wonder if you’d jump to such a guy’s defense, wagging your finger at anyone who calls out his racist statement, telling them they’re ‘dismissing his fear’. How ludicrous.
You are very tiring. Honestly it’s very difficult to empathize with someone who keeps trying so god damn hard to borrow other forms of oppression to validate their own.
I am sympathetic to men and women in regards to the issues that plague both but for fuck sake. If you don’t understand the mechanics of how to foster empathy you are just going to become bitter and angry. Yes, Talk about the things that make you feel oppressed but don’t try and do so as with the intention to shut someone else down as a counter to someone else venting their issues. Create your own moment where you talk about how this stuff in isolation of other people’s shit . That’s how you make your issues known while not seeming like a raging narcissistic ass.
Your problem is only tangentially sexism related. In reality it’s is not understanding basic social dynamics.